Comments on: Teaching Writing Intensively (and Often) http://cac.ophony.org/2008/09/19/teaching-writing-intensively-and-often/ Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:57:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: James Drogan http://cac.ophony.org/2008/09/19/teaching-writing-intensively-and-often/comment-page-1/#comment-37060 James Drogan Thu, 25 Sep 2008 01:18:29 +0000 http://cac.ophony.org/?p=599#comment-37060 Two things occur to me, but first I will admit to some jealousy that Baruch has the Schwartz Institute and its cadre of people who care about quality communication.  It's this caring that provokes these useful discussions about the discipline, what it means, and how it can be instilled in others.The first point.  Perhaps more outsiders need to come into the classroom and make the case why quality communications is an essential skill.  I'm not sure that we academicians are always seen as having the credibility to make this case.The second point.  We need to be sure we are setting good examples for our students.   I'm sure all the Fellows demonstrate this every day, but the rest of us charged with this critical matter of establishing a meaningful learning environment need to make sure we are not undermining the good work of others. Two things occur to me, but first I will admit to some jealousy that Baruch has the Schwartz Institute and its cadre of people who care about quality communication.  It’s this caring that provokes these useful discussions about the discipline, what it means, and how it can be instilled in others.The first point.  Perhaps more outsiders need to come into the classroom and make the case why quality communications is an essential skill.  I’m not sure that we academicians are always seen as having the credibility to make this case.The second point.  We need to be sure we are setting good examples for our students.   I’m sure all the Fellows demonstrate this every day, but the rest of us charged with this critical matter of establishing a meaningful learning environment need to make sure we are not undermining the good work of others.

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]]> By: Yukiko http://cac.ophony.org/2008/09/19/teaching-writing-intensively-and-often/comment-page-1/#comment-37046 Yukiko Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:52:29 +0000 http://cac.ophony.org/?p=599#comment-37046 Great post, James!Your post got me thinking about two things. One is students' obsessions with getting a good grade (sigh), and the other one about the general fear and anxiety with writing for classes. I guess they are connected.I must say I have come a long way as a writer of English, as I am a second language user of English, and I still remember my very first months of doing coursework in English. Then 'writing' meant nothing but fear and anxiety. I felt clueless about how I start, frustrated that my English sounded so childish, had no idea how I go about coming up with ideas, revising, etc. etc. Even now, I still feel these feelings (when posting on cac.ophony too)! Also, I am now supporting (non-ESL) students who didn't get a good grade in their past writing class. Many of them are so fearful of writing and totally convinced that they can't write.  It is very hard to make them understand that 'writing' is not a big deal and it can help you learn.  So as much as I completely agree with you and your feelings towards the writing/communication-instensive instructions and its effect on the fundamental roles that written and oral communication *should* play in the students' learning processes, I can also see the big psychological obstacle for certain student populations to overcome (besides the grade obsessions). I think that getting rid of this fear and anxiety is very important, and I try to do that to my own students, but I wonder if there are any ways to reach out to more students... Great post, James!Your post got me thinking about two things. One is students’ obsessions with getting a good grade (sigh), and the other one about the general fear and anxiety with writing for classes. I guess they are connected.I must say I have come a long way as a writer of English, as I am a second language user of English, and I still remember my very first months of doing coursework in English. Then ‘writing’ meant nothing but fear and anxiety. I felt clueless about how I start, frustrated that my English sounded so childish, had no idea how I go about coming up with ideas, revising, etc. etc. Even now, I still feel these feelings (when posting on cac.ophony too)! Also, I am now supporting (non-ESL) students who didn’t get a good grade in their past writing class. Many of them are so fearful of writing and totally convinced that they can’t write.  It is very hard to make them understand that ‘writing’ is not a big deal and it can help you learn.  So as much as I completely agree with you and your feelings towards the writing/communication-instensive instructions and its effect on the fundamental roles that written and oral communication *should* play in the students’ learning processes, I can also see the big psychological obstacle for certain student populations to overcome (besides the grade obsessions). I think that getting rid of this fear and anxiety is very important, and I try to do that to my own students, but I wonder if there are any ways to reach out to more students…

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]]> By: Agnieszka http://cac.ophony.org/2008/09/19/teaching-writing-intensively-and-often/comment-page-1/#comment-37043 Agnieszka Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:16:12 +0000 http://cac.ophony.org/?p=599#comment-37043 But the students do write a lot: letters, emails, text messages, perhaps diaries, or music lyrics. Yes, academic writing has its own language, style and genres. It is not always easy (or appropriate) to find a common ground between these genres. Although I can imagine designing an assignment in a politics class asking a student to write a letter to a friend abroad explaining some issue from American politics, I think it would be much harder to do so in disciplines which value rigid genre. My dilemma is this: do I try to creatively “stretch” and transform a writing assignment to reflect writing styles my students might be more familiar with (rap lyrics to explain mortgage crisis, anybody?) Or perhaps I owe them instead to rigidly teach the various styles valued by their disciplines? Do I owe it to them to challenge them to take their academic work seriously and see the difference between text messaging and more “serious” writing, instead of patronizing them with a “write your grandma a letter” assignment… But the students do write a lot: letters, emails, text messages, perhaps diaries, or music lyrics. Yes, academic writing has its own language, style and genres. It is not always easy (or appropriate) to find a common ground between these genres. Although I can imagine designing an assignment in a politics class asking a student to write a letter to a friend abroad explaining some issue from American politics, I think it would be much harder to do so in disciplines which value rigid genre. My dilemma is this: do I try to creatively “stretch” and transform a writing assignment to reflect writing styles my students might be more familiar with (rap lyrics to explain mortgage crisis, anybody?) Or perhaps I owe them instead to rigidly teach the various styles valued by their disciplines? Do I owe it to them to challenge them to take their academic work seriously and see the difference between text messaging and more “serious” writing, instead of patronizing them with a “write your grandma a letter” assignment…

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]]> By: Hillary http://cac.ophony.org/2008/09/19/teaching-writing-intensively-and-often/comment-page-1/#comment-37042 Hillary Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:11:05 +0000 http://cac.ophony.org/?p=599#comment-37042 Really interesting post, James. Regarding demanding profs & evaluations: I once felt so overwhelmed by the reading expected of me in a doctoral level course that I was actually moved to comment on it in the end-of-semester evaluations. My main bone to pick was that it negatively impacted on class time-- it's difficult to have a productive discussion when everyone has only read one or two articles and skimmed the six other ones. I found myself feeling exactly as Baruch students often feel: "this is CUNY! I'm working! I'm busy! Waaah!" Looking back, however, I fear that I was a bit out of line; if I'm a doctoral student in Theatre, this is exactly the kind of challenge that I need to learn to cope with and master. So while it's of course true that students should ideally see improving their writing as part-and-parcel with every course, it's also true that they need to advance a whole menu of other skills for their ultimate goals (which are very different from mine). In an attempt to do this, I share articles with students about how important communication is in the workplace, but the truth is that their upcoming Statistical Analysis exam is *also* extremely important, and in their eyes, perhaps moreso. Finding a balance in terms of approaching that pedagogically is tough, especially since the question of context rears its head here. Perhaps some students arrive at undergrad ready to tackle any writing challenge thrown at them in any discipline, whereas others-- especially when many are facing the kinds of communication obstacles that ESL students are-- don't have that level of ability from the get-go. What am I saying? That I agree with you 100% ideally, but on the ground, it's sticky. The upside is that Fellows get many opportunities to forward the very message that you're suggesting, even if it can seem from some glances like compartmentalization. For example, impressing upon students how essential different forms of writing can be within their own aspirations-- memos versus emails versus executive summary versus cover letter versus essays-- is one way to fold writing goals together with their own goals, which is key if they're going to value progress in it. Really interesting post, James. Regarding demanding profs & evaluations: I once felt so overwhelmed by the reading expected of me in a doctoral level course that I was actually moved to comment on it in the end-of-semester evaluations. My main bone to pick was that it negatively impacted on class time– it’s difficult to have a productive discussion when everyone has only read one or two articles and skimmed the six other ones. I found myself feeling exactly as Baruch students often feel: “this is CUNY! I’m working! I’m busy! Waaah!” Looking back, however, I fear that I was a bit out of line; if I’m a doctoral student in Theatre, this is exactly the kind of challenge that I need to learn to cope with and master. So while it’s of course true that students should ideally see improving their writing as part-and-parcel with every course, it’s also true that they need to advance a whole menu of other skills for their ultimate goals (which are very different from mine). In an attempt to do this, I share articles with students about how important communication is in the workplace, but the truth is that their upcoming Statistical Analysis exam is *also* extremely important, and in their eyes, perhaps moreso. Finding a balance in terms of approaching that pedagogically is tough, especially since the question of context rears its head here. Perhaps some students arrive at undergrad ready to tackle any writing challenge thrown at them in any discipline, whereas others– especially when many are facing the kinds of communication obstacles that ESL students are– don’t have that level of ability from the get-go. What am I saying? That I agree with you 100% ideally, but on the ground, it’s sticky. The upside is that Fellows get many opportunities to forward the very message that you’re suggesting, even if it can seem from some glances like compartmentalization. For example, impressing upon students how essential different forms of writing can be within their own aspirations– memos versus emails versus executive summary versus cover letter versus essays– is one way to fold writing goals together with their own goals, which is key if they’re going to value progress in it.

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]]> By: James http://cac.ophony.org/2008/09/19/teaching-writing-intensively-and-often/comment-page-1/#comment-37030 James Sat, 20 Sep 2008 20:01:09 +0000 http://cac.ophony.org/?p=599#comment-37030 Hi Suzanne, I absolutely agree that re-writing is crucial for helping students learn how to write good academic essays, but what I was really trying to talk about in this post, and I probably didn't do a very good job, was how we can get students to recognize and embrace the idea that writing is not something you do for a grade at the end of the semester or during a written exam, but rather that it is an essential part of the learning process itself. Requiring less writing undermines this important fact and reiterates the often problematic relationship that many students have with writing. I guess I am not as interested in making my students great writers--let's face it you're either a great writer or you're not--but I am more concerned with making them competent and effective writers who understand the potential that writing offers and are unafraid of it. As far as I can tell--and my ignorance is vast--the only way for them to reach that state of comfort and confidence is to write frequently (ideally daily). High stakes assignments once or twice a semester, which many instructors still tend to assign, only equate writing with states of anxiety and fear. Thanks for the comment. James. Hi Suzanne,

I absolutely agree that re-writing is crucial for helping students learn how to write good academic essays, but what I was really trying to talk about in this post, and I probably didn’t do a very good job, was how we can get students to recognize and embrace the idea that writing is not something you do for a grade at the end of the semester or during a written exam, but rather that it is an essential part of the learning process itself. Requiring less writing undermines this important fact and reiterates the often problematic relationship that many students have with writing. I guess I am not as interested in making my students great writers–let’s face it you’re either a great writer or you’re not–but I am more concerned with making them competent and effective writers who understand the potential that writing offers and are unafraid of it. As far as I can tell–and my ignorance is vast–the only way for them to reach that state of comfort and confidence is to write frequently (ideally daily). High stakes assignments once or twice a semester, which many instructors still tend to assign, only equate writing with states of anxiety and fear.

Thanks for the comment.

James.

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]]> By: Dr. Sanford Aranoff http://cac.ophony.org/2008/09/19/teaching-writing-intensively-and-often/comment-page-1/#comment-37020 Dr. Sanford Aranoff Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:36:05 +0000 http://cac.ophony.org/?p=599#comment-37020 Students must understand that writing is communication. Teachers must begin by understanding how students think. If you want to help students, see "Teaching and Helping Students Think and Do Better" on amazon. Students must understand that writing is communication. Teachers must begin by understanding how students think. If you want to help students, see “Teaching and Helping Students Think and Do Better” on amazon.

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]]> By: Suzanne http://cac.ophony.org/2008/09/19/teaching-writing-intensively-and-often/comment-page-1/#comment-37017 Suzanne Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:48:33 +0000 http://cac.ophony.org/?p=599#comment-37017 Well James this is a wonderful post and I want to respond to so many parts of it. But perhaps like many of your students I don't know where to begin and feel overwhlemed by the amount of wrok you might expect in response :). I want to respond in a practical way and suggest working with a blog for your students' 1-2 page informal responses to the class work. It is amazing how seeing your work up on the internet in a glossy magazine style can really start students rolling.I also want to respond theoretically as I am very often an advocate for less is more.  Writing is also about thinking and increasing the amount of words we have to define our thoughts. If they wrote less but revised more would they learn more? Open to debate... Well James this is a wonderful post and I want to respond to so many parts of it. But perhaps like many of your students I don’t know where to begin and feel overwhlemed by the amount of wrok you might expect in response :). I want to respond in a practical way and suggest working with a blog for your students’ 1-2 page informal responses to the class work. It is amazing how seeing your work up on the internet in a glossy magazine style can really start students rolling.I also want to respond theoretically as I am very often an advocate for less is more.  Writing is also about thinking and increasing the amount of words we have to define our thoughts. If they wrote less but revised more would they learn more? Open to debate…

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